39 Sara Lieberman: storyteller

Sara Lieberman is a writer and editor with over 20 years of experience in legacy media. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, AFAR, Travel + Leisure, and more, and she's edited at The New York Post and The Daily Beast, as well as for a variety of nonfiction lifestyle books. 

In her spare time, she practices yoga, gets lost on hikes, eats, and thinks about eating. She documents much of this on her Substack, Overthinking It, and also helps other people document their own musings as a self-declared Word Doc, also on Substack. Follow her on Instagram @saraglieberman.

https://www.saralieberman.com

https://overthinkingit.substack.com

https://worddoc.substack.com

https://www.instagram.com/saraglieberman

Kathie’s note: Sara is a guide at Caveday.org and at first I thought she was an actual Parisian because her Zoom screen said Sara, Paris. And I wanted to brush up on my high school French, like À quelle heure part le train? or some other useful phrase on Zoom, but then she turned out to be an American in Paris, which is still super cool. Plus she’s fun and definitely has a way with words on her Substack pieces.

Writers Rotation intro/outro recorded at Dynamix Productions in Lexington, Kentucky.

Transcript

Sara [00:00:00]:
I'm Sara Lieberman. I'm a storyteller, and writing is therapy.

Intro [00:00:04]:
Hi! Welcome to the Writers Rotation podcast. I'm your host, Kathie Stamps. I love words and writing and people and talking. So I'm talking to people who write all kinds of things in different professions. It's a Writers Rotation. 

Kathie [00:00:22]
Sara, how you doing?

Sara [00:00:23]:
Hi, I'm doing well. It's so good to see, see your smiling face on here.

Kathie [00:00:30]:
Okay, Paris. What's the deal? Are you there? Did you live there? Were you born there?

Sara [00:00:34]:
Not there now, I'm in New York. Born in New York, moved to Paris in November 2014 after, kind of sort of, on a whim-ish. I had recently, about a year prior, I had decided to leave my job as an editor at the New York Post here in New York and go freelance, which is something that I never thought I'd do, but probably was always in the cards as a one-time magazine journalism major at Syracuse University's Newhouse School.

Kathie [00:01:10]:
I want to hear all about that.

Sara [00:01:11]:
Yes. So I left my job in the spring of 2013 and I wanted to pursue travel journalism, which was always a dream of mine. Going back to, post-college, to circa 2000 when I went backpacking for six months by myself around Australia, New Zealand, Southeast Asia. And just sort of fell into this world of travel and wanting to write about it, because I was a writer and that's what I wanted to do. But that's what everyone wants to do. It's like the dream.

Sara [00:01:48]:
At that time in 2000, you know, there was no Facebook, there was no blog, there was no Substack. I couldn't just become a travel writer on my own. I had just graduated journalism school. And you do the thing that you're told to do, which is get a job, mostly go to New York and get a job, and work in magazines or newspapers and you work your way up. You become an editorial assistant for, you know, a mere $18,000 a year. So basically that's what I did. But I had always in the back of my head thought I really would love to be a travel writer. And so fast forward many years in New York, I guess from about 2001, I moved in very shortly after 911, got my first job in a men's magazine called Gear.

Sara [00:02:33]:
And I started as a receptionist making that $18,000 a year, but worked my way up and it was an independent magazine. So it was really cool to be in a space like that. Even though I always wanted to work for Conde Nast or Hearst or the big guys. But it was a very cool experience and I feel so honored to have been part of, like, a niche, cool publication that eventually folded. And I eventually landed at the New York Post, where I was for about seven years as an editor in the Lifestyle and Entertainment section. Late 20s, early 30s in New York City. I was living the dream, going to amazing events and covering just the happenings of the city. It was awesome.

Sara [00:03:17]:
It was really great. But after a certain time, it sort of was running its course and I wanted to write more. I was editing, and I basically convinced them to send me on this work exchange program where I swapped jobs with a journalist in London. Oh, it was amazing. But three months goes by, like, in a blank and there I fell in love with writing again and was like, oh, I love this and I want to be doing more of this. And I gave my notice and went freelance and now here I was in London, wanting to take advantage of being on that side of the world, and bopped around for a bit, did some traveling, eventually made my way back to New York. Even though I was a seasoned journalist at this point who had worked on staff in newspapers, I hadn't been a freelancer and I hadn't been really doing travel journalism.

Sara [00:04:05]:
It's just like, completely different. So it was kind of like starting over. And I also, as a journalism major and someone who grew up in the OG world of doing things ethically and objectively, and sources and not accepting freebies, but I knew I wanted to work for prestigious publications like The New York Times or the Washington Post. So again, going back to this first trip, I decided I was going to go to Spain for the month.

Sara [00:04:34]:
That's where I wanted to go. I wanted to bop around Spain and came through Paris on my way back. I'd been to Paris, like, for the first time when I was 16. I took French as a language, so I had a little bit of that. But I was never a Francophile. I was not one of those people who bought, like, pillows that say bonjour.

Sara [00:04:54]:
Now I am, which is crazy. And I sort of like, tap, tap, tap, went on to Facebook at night, this was the time when you were still, like, updating your Facebook status. And I put something along the lines of I want to live here. Went to sleep and then woke up to like a gazillion messages and people being like, you should do it.

Sara [00:05:14]:
You should do it. Move to Paris. And basically I decided to take them and myself seriously. And because it was a sign, four months later, it was a sign. Just packed up and relocated myself to Paris that November. And did I think it was going to be nine years that I lived in Paris? No, but it was. And I ended up making this travel writing dream come true.

Kathie [00:05:41]:
That's awesome.

Sara [00:05:42]:
We set goals for ourselves and then we achieve them and then we make new goals.

Kathie [00:05:47]:
Yes. Did you grow up reading the newspaper and magazines?

Sara [00:05:50]:
Not really newspapers, but definitely magazines. I was obsessed with magazines when I was a kid. I read YM, of course. I read 17. I was a huge Sassy girl. Loved Sassy. And then when it ended and then it became Jane. Jane magazine was like goals for me.

Sara [00:06:09]:
I wanted to work for Jane magazine so bad that when I graduated college, there was a job opening there. It was for a copy editor position, which as a writer, you know, Kathie, copy editors and editors are different. You either are really good at grammar, spelling, and punctuation, or you're just—see, not me. I mean, I know it because we're trained to know it. Obviously we know the basics. But I am definitely not a word nerd in that.

Sara [00:06:33]:
But it was a copy editor position and I was like, I'm applying for that. Because also at the time, I didn't really know the difference. I mean, I knew it, but not really. Like, they only teach you so much at journalism school.

Kathie [00:06:46]:
And it changes. I could talk forever about the difference between grammar and style. And style is dynamic.

Sara [00:06:53]:
Yeah. Oh, so different. I can do style and everyone's style is different. But there's also technically a right and a wrong way of doing things.

Kathie [00:07:02]:
You know, that's the style guide.

Sara [00:07:04]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kathie [00:07:05]:
I wish they had picked another word because style and style, again, two different things.

Sara [00:07:09]:
Yes, yes, yes.

Kathie [00:07:10]:
For example, the serial comma with Associated Press. They've never said always—
or never, rather. They don't use it in a simple series.

Sara [00:07:19]:
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep.

Kathie [00:07:20]:
But they do use the serial comma when it could be misconstrued or whatever. So little things like that. Chicago and AP, they change their stuff. They change their little rules, and each publication is different with in-house style.

Sara [00:07:35]:
Yeah. So anyway, I applied for this copy editor position at Jane magazine because I just wanted to work for Jane. And first of all, the reason why I got the interview is because I submitted my resume. I had it printed on a T-shirt. I had the cover letter printed on the front and the resume printed on the back.

Kathie [00:07:52]:
That's hilarious.

Sara [00:07:53]:
I hung the T-shirt on a dry cleaning hanger with the plastic on it, and I had it messengered to the office. So it didn't come with regular mail. Obviously, it was messenger, and they received it. And it's funny, to this day, like, I become friendly... You know, there's a bunch of, not colleagues, but people I've worked with through the years who worked at Jane magazine back in the day, and a few of them were like, I remember that! I remember when that came in.

Sara [00:08:20]:
So I got the interview, and I remember. I'll never forget sitting there and having to do this timed copy test where they had, like, one of those little timers, and it's like, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And I had to make these copy edits. And as I was sitting there, I was like, yeah, no, this is not gonna happen.

Kathie [00:08:37]:
That's fun. So how did you pick your journalism degree?

Sara [00:08:41]:
Stems back to high school. I'd always been a writer. Like, I always liked to write. I was always a journaler. Always had a diary as a young girl. And English was always my favorite, favorite subject in terms of reading and writing. But it definitely wasn't until high school. I had an elective.

Sara [00:08:57]:
I took a journalism course. The teacher's name was Mrs. Padgett. I tried contacting her recently. I couldn't find her, but she was the journalism teacher. And I took a class in high school, and I just loved it. I fell in love with it. And she recognized a skill and was like, you're really good at this.

Sara [00:09:16]:
I always remember back to. Actually, I wrote a basketball review, like, a review of basketball game. And I'm not a sports person at all, but I'll never forget. It was recapping a Miami Heat and a New York Knicks game, or whatever it was. And looking back on it, it's so obvious, but I used the heat as a metaphor throughout the piece.

Kathie [00:09:44]:
Oh, there you go. Were they on fire?

Sara [00:09:47]:
Voila. There you go. Now it's like, looking back at it, it's so cringy. It's so on the nose, you know, but this teacher recognized it in me, and that sort of set me off. I applied to Newhouse, which is a very prestigious journalism school in the country. Straight off the bat, I did not get in freshman year, but I decided to go to Syracuse anyway, as I heard that it's easier to get in once you're there.

Sara [00:10:14]:
So I started out freshman year just as a liberal arts major, but was able to take second semester. They allow you to take, like, the first class. It's called comm 107. Communications 107. Then applied that second semester for sophomore year and got in sophomore year.

Sara [00:10:31]:
And I specified in magazine journalism because it was such a tailored school. You could be specific. So you could study magazine journalism, newspaper journalism, broadcast, you know, all that jazz. Now there's digital and who knows what else there is now.

Kathie [00:10:47]:
Photography.

Sara [00:10:48]:
Oh, yeah, yeah. And I took some photography classes. You had to take, like, you had electives and then you had required courses. We had to take Comm Law. We had to take ethics. I took critical writing. It was so amazing.

Sara [00:11:00]:
I loved that school. I loved the classes and the teachers, the professors. To this day, I still have a relationship with one of the professors who then went on to become the (associate) dean of the school. It was her first big job. 

Sara [00:11:18]:
She was new. Her name is Melissa Chessher. She's now a Southern Methodist U. She was an incredible woman and mentor and I feel like every one of her students feels like they have a special relationship with her, which they probably do. But I think she has this innate ability to make everybody feel so special and she's a really good listener and such a great teacher, and she's just wonderful.

Sara [00:11:41]:
We caught up about a year ago as I was sort of transitioning, leaving Paris and trying to decide where I wanted to take my writing and editing career. And to this day, I mean, that's 25 years later. Yeah. She's fantastic. That was my schooling.

Kathie [00:11:54]:
So cool. So what are you doing now? You have a Substack?

Sara [00:11:57]:
I have two Substacks. My writing Substack that I've been nourishing for the past seven years now is called Overthinking It.

Kathie [00:12:14]:
I get the Word Doc.

Sara [00:12:16]:
Word Doc, okay. So Overthinking It is the OG letter, which I originally launched on Mailchimp many years ago and then moved over to Substack. Also early adopter there, but not super, super early, but way earlier than what it's been now, because now everyone's on Substack. Overthinking It is basically just what's going on in my brain. Basically. It's like a big brain dump.

Sara [00:12:36]:
But in a nice essay form. When I first launched the letter, it was really just meant to be like, here are some things I'm reading and things I'm watching and listening to and a fun little insight into what's going on with me. And then I always felt weird just to, like, launch into links and recommendations. Open it up with a little intro, and then the intro kind of became more of an essay. And that's what I spend the most time on. And that's, of course, what the people love the most. And so that goes out every other week-ish.

Sara [00:13:06]:
And then this past spring, I launched a subset called Word Doc. And that is a Substack, it's like content marketing, to be honest with you. So basically what I started to see, you know, a year or some more than a year ago, is that so many people were coming to Substack, so many writers, people were using this platform for their writing. And you're reading so much. And as a writer, but also as an editor, you see so many mistakes and so many ways that the writing could be made better. And so I thought I would pitch myself to the Substack community as an editor as a quote, unquote, word doctor.

Kathie [00:13:47]:
Love it.

Sara [00:13:48]:
So the goal is, like, hire me as your editor for your Substack. If you have the funds, if you have the, you know, my rates are very digestible. I mean, not what I would charge for copywriting or an article. I'm trying to make this agreeable to people because I know a lot of what writers have going on Substack, the whole point is to maybe earn money themselves.

Sara [00:14:14]:
So it's like, they might not necessarily be willing to give it away right away, but if you're someone who likes to have someone look over your work beforehand, whether that's just for, you know, typos and spelling and facts, or it's for a deeper dive into format and structure and cadence, then I'm your girl. And then the content that I'm publishing on Substack is merely just a way to be oh hey, this is me. This is what I know. This is my expertise. And this is why you should trust that I could do this and help you out in your endeavors here on Substack. So I have one steady client right now whose Substack I am editing, which is great. I'd love to take on more. Yeah. It's been an interesting ride so far.

Kathie [00:15:02]:
Cool.

Sara [00:15:02]:
I love editing. Like, my whole thing is, to be a good editor, you have to be a good writer. But not every writer is a good editor.

Kathie [00:15:11]:
Yes.

Sara [00:15:11]:
Would you agree?

Kathie [00:15:13]:
Yes. I mean, it's that understanding the reader, because I think the reader and the writer are two different parts of the brain. And so many of us—raising my hand—try to write for the reader from scratch. And I think we need to write for the writer first, and then edit for the reader.

Sara [00:15:30]:
And even us writers need editors. Like, just because I'm pitching myself as an editor doesn't mean, like, I'm also a writer. And I also would rather someone read over my work before I publish it. And it's different now because obviously you can always make changes and stuff if you need to, especially if things are digital. And I believe that when you put something out there, it's a reflection of you and yourself and who you are and what you believe and have to say, and also the way you handle yourself. Like, I hate typos. I hate word reps. To me, like, I am also a book editor, and I edit people's nonfiction books. I've done three or four now, working on my fourth.

Sara [00:16:18]:
And the writer that I'm working with now, we were talking yesterday. We were going over a few of her chapters, and my biggest pet peeve are word reps. Like, I hate word reps. I just feel like there's the language, the English language is so vast. There are so many different ways, like use another word.

Kathie [00:16:41]:
The only words you can repeat are “the” and “a” (laughing).

Sara [00:16:48]:
You know what I mean? And back to style. Sometimes you repeat for style. There's a reason why you're repeating.

Kathie [00:16:57]:
Yes, and sometimes it works. It's a skill, like anything else.

Sara [00:17:01]:
That’s like the difference between a trashy beach read and a literary novel. Both are valid and both have places in this world. And you know, one is one thing and the other is another thing.

Kathie [00:17:15]:
Now, I do love a good trashy beach read.

Sara [00:17:18]:
Same. As do I. I love a plot-driven novel. Not everything has to be a literary masterpiece, you know, your brain can't handle that.

Sara [00:17:28]:
Have you read anything interesting? I just read a really great book.

Kathie [00:17:31]:
What have you read recently?

Sara [00:17:32]:
I just read The Elements by John Boyne. He wrote The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, which I don't think I ever read, but it was a very famous book and became a movie. Anyway, this book is fantastic. It's one of those starts here, ends there, spider web, very character-driven, but also plot-driven and I loved it. What about you? Are you reading anything good?

Kathie [00:17:59]:
I thoroughly enjoyed A Secret History of Witches by Louisa Morgan. Novel, fiction. And Gabrielle Zevin, who wrote Tomorrow, Tomorrow and Tomorrow. I'm sorry, Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow.

Sara [00:18:14]:
Yes. Loved that book. So much.

Kathie [00:18:18]:
She's very cool.

Sara [00:18:19]:
So much. I just read the most recent Wally Lamb book, The River Is Waiting, which I gave four stars.

Kathie [00:18:28]:
I used to feel guilty about the three stars, but it says I liked it. Yeah, I liked it!

Sara [00:18:34]:
Just because it's not five stars doesn't mean it's not good. Right? So do you do paper books or are you digital?

Kathie [00:18:41]:
I'm 98 percent audiobooks.

Sara [00:18:45]:
When I moved from New York to Paris, I went digital. I get my news from podcasts. I listen to The Daily, I listen to Today Explained for news. And lately I am obsessed with Amy Poehler's Good Hang.

Kathie [00:18:58]:
Okay. Heard of that. Yeah.

Sara [00:19:00]:
So good. And I love Julie Louis Dreyfus's Wiser Than Me. Do you listen?

Kathie [00:19:05]:
Have not yet. It's been on my list.

Sara [00:19:07]:
Very good. Oh, and I'm a Survivor fan, so I love the Survivor podcast. Those are basically my rotating podcasts.

Kathie [00:19:18]:
There you go. Thank you so much for being here.

Sara [00:19:21]:
My pleasure.

Kathie [00:19:22]:
This was so fun.

Sara [00:19:23]:
Thank you so much for thinking of me.

Kathie [00:19:25]:
Thanks, Sara. Bye.

Sara [00:19:27]:
Bye.

Outro [00:19:27]:
Thanks for listening to this episode of Writers Rotation. Like and subscribe for more. And remember, writing is a marketable skill. Smiling is a remarkable skill.